Nautilus 1992 July/Nautilus-3-8/Nautilus-3-8.bin/Tools & Utilities/Techy Stuff/Doco ƒ/CSMP ƒ/CSMP-V1-062.TXT

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C.S.M.P. Digest             Tue, 28 Apr 92       Volume 1 : Issue 62

Today's Topics:

    PKZIP for Mac
    Macsbug documentation?
    Individual Tech notes by FTP?
    Advice/info appreciated
    question about offscreen bitmaps
    Loading MacsBugs after INIT time?
    ASSEMBLY PROGRAMMING
    Cool Idea:  ResEdit as a Finder Extension...
    Invisible editing problem
    Think C & coroutines


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-------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dan Lulue )
Subject: PKZIP for Mac
Date: 23 Mar 92 22:42:14 GMT
Organization: Computer Sciences Corporation

Does anyone know if PKZIP has been ported to the Mac?  I have a bunch of
zipp'ed text files that I need to put on a Macintosh and I'd like to
avoid having to unzip on the pc then xfer to the Mac.

Thank you in advance.

Dan Lulue
[e-mail]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: [e-mail] (Timothy Allen)
Date: 24 Mar 92 19:05:00 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Dan Lulue ) writes:

> Does anyone know if PKZIP has been ported to the Mac?  I have a bunch of
> zipp'ed text files that I need to put on a Macintosh and I'd like to
> avoid having to unzip on the pc then xfer to the Mac.

I've tried the Unzip 1.01 application that was available at sumex-aim.
It crashed my system on quitting and returning to the Finder (Finder
error, illegal address) (System 7.0 + tune-up, Mac SE, 4 Mb).  Version
1.01 had a creation date in early 1989 I think - is there anything more
recent?

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tim Allen
[e-mail]
Earth Science Department
Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH 03755

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: [e-mail] (Bryan Socha)
Date: 25 Mar 92 08:19:00 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:273/921 - Unseen Realit, Philadelphia PA


 # Does anyone know if PKZIP has been ported to the Mac?  I have
 # a bunch of
 # zipp'ed text files that I need to put on a Macintosh and I'd
 # like to
 # avoid having to unzip on the pc then xfer to the Mac.

Yes I have/seen a UNZIP program (called that) works good...

- --
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
 Bryan Socha - Internet: [e-mail]

---------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Mark D. Gold)
Subject: Macsbug documentation?
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 92 14:34:56 GMT


Hi, I'm fairly new to the MAC world and was wondering if there
is any documentation out there for using MACSBUG.  Does it run
on the MAC operating system or only AUX?

Also, can anyone tell me what the utility, "discipline" is on the
FTP [D FTP.APPLE.COM site?  Is there any documentation for this?

            -0   Mark Gold
            [e-mail]>EDU
- --
******************************************************************
Mark D. Gold               Massachusetts Institute of Technology
[phone]             Assistant Manager, OIS
[e-mail]           Industrial Liaison Program

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: [e-mail] (Carl W. Haynes III)
Date: 24 Mar 92 19:06:26 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark D. Gold) writes:
>
>Hi, I'm fairly new to the MAC world and was wondering if there
>is any documentation out there for using MACSBUG.  Does it run
>on the MAC operating system or only AUX?
>

You're in luck, there is a great book out on Macsbug called "Debugging
Macintosh Software with Macsbug". I just finished reading it and it
is one of the best books I've read on macintosh programming in
a long long time. In addition to talking about how to use MacsBug, it
gets down to the nitty gritty about how things work on the Macintosh.
I used to recommend "How to write Macintosh Software" by Scott Knaster
for the down and dirty stuff (and that is still a classic), but I think
this is probably the best book for intermediate level programmers
who want to know more. A reading level of assembly language is assumed.
Oh yeah, it actually comes with a disk (my pet peeve is programming books
which make you shell out another 25 bucks for the code) with lots
of cool dcmds and stuff. Now, if only there was a way to write dcmds with
Think C.

  Debugging Macintosh Software with MacsBug
  by Konstantin Othmer & Jim Staus
  Addison Wesley, ISBN: 0-201-57049-1

>Also, can anyone tell me what the utility, "discipline" is on the
>FTP [D FTP.APPLE.COM site?  Is there any documentation for this?

I've never been able to get discipline to work, but that may just be me.
My understanding of it is that it checks the parameters that are
passed to traps to make sure they are ok. In the debugging book
mentioned above, the authors state that the future of the utility
is uncertain. That's not much info about it, but a little is better
then nothing. I've never seen any documentation for it, maybe through
APDA?

carl haynes
[e-mail]
AOL: CWH3

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: [e-mail] (John Pfeifer)
Organization: National Inst. of Health, DCRT, CSL
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1992 20:41:16 GMT

There's apple's _MacsBug Reference and Debugging Guide_ published by Addison-Wesley.
It also contains a chapter on Discipline.

- -John
- --
#include <stdsig.h>

        John Pfeifer                    internet: [e-mail]

    "The most creative and holy of men are always quite mad.
     It is simply a social thing as to wether one is sane or
     _insane_."                -The Madonna Vampira

---------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Individual Tech notes by FTP?
Date: 24 Mar 92 15:37:08 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology


       Does anyone know of an FTP site that stocks individual tech notes?
ftp.apple.com only has the stack version these days, and I really don't
have the disk space for that right now. Thanks.

Elliotte Rusty Harold                Department of Applied Mathematics
[e-mail]                New Jersey Institute of Technology
[e-mail]                Newark, NJ 07103

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: [e-mail] (Thomas Alan Akins)
Organization: University of Oregon Computer and Information Sciences Dept.
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1992 16:54:18 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>       Does anyone know of an FTP site that stocks individual tech notes?
>ftp.apple.com only has the stack version these days, and I really don't
>have the disk space for that right now. Thanks.
>
>Elliotte Rusty Harold                Department of Applied Mathematics
>[e-mail]                New Jersey Institute of Technology
>[e-mail]                Newark, NJ 07103

I believe microlib.cc.utexas keeps them all under /microlib/mac/tech-notes or
something similar to that.  If not microlib, then try rascal.ics.utexas.  I
know I got a bunch from one of the two.

They aren't "individual" notes, however.  They've been archived into groups of
50 notes.  They should include all of them through #312.

- --
*                                            Alan Akins                      *
*       "I could say 'addition'              [e-mail]            *
*        when I mean ... 'basketball.'"      University of Oregon            *
*                        - E. Tick           Department of Computer Science  *

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: [e-mail] (Andre "Just A Plumber" Srinivasan)
Date: 25 Mar 92 12:43:12 GMT
Organization: Acme Plumbing Services And Exploding Cigars


also check out mac.archive at umich. i believe that they can be
downloaded as individual notes.

                                -andre.
- --
Andre Srinivasan  :     "This file provides programmers with information
734 LRDC          :     proving that it really was a hardware problem..."
U. of Pittsburgh  :
[e-mail] :                - MacsBug Ballon Help

---------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Advice/info appreciated
Date: 24 Mar 92 16:31:34 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo

I am new to the Mac world (in fact, I don't have a Mac yet)..
I need to get up to speed on some of the standards and I will be developing
a major application soon..
Can someone enlighten me as to some of the 'standards' on the Mac?
I've browsed this group and have found that MPW and Think C are the 2 main
C compilers.. What are the pro's and con's of each? (I'll be ftping the FAQ
file later - haven't had time yet)..
Also, what are some of the 'essential' books/documents for technical info?
Do I really need a CD-ROM to get the 'latest' info?
What would be considered a 'reasonable' system to do development on?
a 68020 (I don't know the particular model), 100 meg hd, 4 megs ram, etc?
Is a color monitor necessary? If I'm patient is a Mac SE w/ 2.5 megs good
enough?
Thanks for any replies,

- --
Mattias Hembruch
[e-mail]
or [e-mail]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: [e-mail] (Jon W{tte)
Date: 25 Mar 92 12:53:26 GMT
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden

.waterloo.edu> [e-mail] writes:

   I need to get up to speed on some of the standards and I will be developing
   a major application soon..

You will be doing a major application. That means you get paid.
That means you can write the machine cost off (tax deductible)
or that your employer pays the machine.

   Can someone enlighten me as to some of the 'standards' on the Mac?

   I've browsed this group and have found that MPW and Think C are the 2 main
   C compilers.. What are the pro's and con's of each? (I'll be ftping the FAQ
   file later - haven't had time yet)..

MPW - large and scriptable, slow, can handle just about anything.

Think C - utterly slick, small, cute and fast. Ideal for a one-
person job.

   Also, what are some of the 'essential' books/documents for technical info?

Let's see, Inside Macintosh volumes I-VI, and the Tech Notes (310 or so)
IM needs to be BOTH on paper (from A-W) and in HyperCard form (takes
about 50 MB - if you have a CD, they can stay on the disc)

A membership in the apple developer program - about $350, and worth
every penny. In a pinch, a subscription to _develop_ at $30/4 issues
(1 year) will suffice.

   Do I really need a CD-ROM to get the 'latest' info?

Yes. Or a very large hard disk and very good FTP capability.

   What would be considered a 'reasonable' system to do development on?
   a 68020 (I don't know the particular model), 100 meg hd, 4 megs ram, etc?

For home-tinkering, yes. For professional development, no.

MPW needs 5 megs to link anything of size, and runs out of steam even
using 8 MB linking NetHack. I use 20 MB, and that's budget...
The more memory the better. 20 is a minimum for "major application
development."

The 68020 mac would be the LC or an original II. Totally inadequate.
The LC is about the same speed as a 20 MHz 386SX in the clone world...
If you're really serious about your application being a major application
(as in major commercial application) you should get a Quadra 900 with a
large screen, 16" or 21". Any disk >= 150 MB will do, but larger are
usually faster. On a 32MB Quadra, you can do your compiles on RAM
disk, though, which makes the internal disk moot :-)

   Is a color monitor necessary? If I'm patient is a Mac SE w/ 2.5 megs good
   enough?

Definately for any kind of serious development, as you will be
expected to look good in both color and b/w, as well as work
well both with large & small displays. The SE would be a perfect
debugging and testing machine, but for compilation, editing and
"work/horse" AT LEAST get a IIci with cache card, and, as I said,
get 20 MB of RAM. That's especially important if you use MPW.

   Thanks for any replies,

You're welcome.

- --
[e-mail]; Jon W{tte, the Diplomat - NOT!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: [e-mail] (Jeremiah Blatz)
Date: 26 Mar 92 05:10:24 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

More about MPW. I'm a pascal man myself, and I hava a pretty puny
system (Mac Plus 4/105 (I tried to avoid buying a CD, but it was
inevatible)) but I still like MPW better than THINK Pascal. In MPW, you
can write parts of your program in many different languages, I know
there are compilers fo Pascal, C, C++, Assembly, Awk, and Fortran,
there are probably more.

A note on debugging, you should make sure your program works on System
7.0 and 6.0.8 (with & without MultiFinder). You should probably test it
with othere, esp. 6.0.5 and 4.1. You can get these from someone who has
a CD-ROM and almost any Apple disk.

I'm not too sure about needing a Quadra, if you're able to get it paid
for - go for it. Otherwise, I'd reccomend a MacIIci with a cache card.

Good luck,
Jeremiah

---------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Harry Bakker (I87))
Subject: question about offscreen bitmaps
Date: 24 Mar 92 15:24:04 GMT
Organization: FWI, University of Amsterdam

Hello,

I have a question for everybody who can enlighten me.
I've created an offscreen grafport with the NewGWordl function, with a pixel-
depth of 1 and the noNewDevice flag set. After that I drew a fullcolor picture
(with more then 10 colors) on it. Now I thought that the colorinformation in
that picture would be lost, because of the 1 bit pixeldepth. But after a
CopyBits of the picture to an onscreen window, I got the fullcolor picture
on my screen. How is this possible?

- -Harry Bakker
([e-mail])

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: [e-mail] (Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Waikato University)
Date: 25 Mar 92 06:00:44 GMT
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Harry Bakker (I87)) writes:
> I have a question for everybody who can enlighten me.
> I've created an offscreen grafport with the NewGWordl function, with a pixel-
> depth of 1 and the noNewDevice flag set. After that I drew a fullcolor picture
> (with more then 10 colors) on it. Now I thought that the colorinformation in
> that picture would be lost, because of the 1 bit pixeldepth. But after a
> CopyBits of the picture to an onscreen window, I got the fullcolor picture
> on my screen. How is this possible?

Inside Mac VI, page 21-14: "If you set noNewDevice, NewGWorld does not create
a new offscreen device, and the depth and color table of the aGDevice
parameter are used to create the offscreen graphics world."

I don't know what you passed for aGDevice, but I suspect all you've succeeded
in doing is creating an offscreen pixmap with the same depth and colour
table as your screen.

If you really wanted to create a 1-bit pixmap, regardless of your screen,
setting, you shouldn't have specified noNewDevice.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro                       fone: [phone]
Computer Services Dept                     fax: [phone]
University of Waikato            electric mail: [e-mail]
Hamilton, New Zealand    37^ 47' 26" S, 175^ 19' 7" E, GMT+13:00

---------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Russell Street)
Subject: Loading MacsBugs after INIT time?
Date: 24 Mar 92 21:36:15 GMT
Organization: University of Auckland, New Zealand.

Would there be any way to load MacsBugs after the system has
started up?

Trying the obvious but naive thing: load the data fork of
Macsbugs into the system heap and jsr start+512 just gets
you a corrupt heap.

It would be nice to be able to disable extensions under System 7
and still have the debugger.

Something for the wizards to think about...
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Russell Street ([e-mail])
       "Now then, Seagoon, what made you join the army?"
    -- "An armed escort and two military police men."
       (The Goons Show, "The Nasty Affair At the Burami Oasis")

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: [e-mail] (Jim Reekes)
Date: 26 Mar 92 23:43:01 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Russell Street) writes:
>
> Would there be any way to load MacsBugs after the system has
> started up?
>
> Trying the obvious but naive thing: load the data fork of
> Macsbugs into the system heap and jsr start+512 just gets
> you a corrupt heap.
>
> It would be nice to be able to disable extensions under System 7
> and still have the debugger.

Use TMON.  It loads as another system extention automatically.  You can also
launch TMON anytime you want.  It's just an application.

MacsBug was designed to load before everything, so we could debug the
system.  It makes all kinds of assumptions because of this.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Reekes, E.O.             |     Macintosh Toolbox Engineering
                             |          Sound Manager Expert
Apple Computer, Inc.         | "All opinions expressed are mine, and do
20525 Mariani Ave. MS: 81-KS |   not necessarily represent those of my
Cupertino, CA 95014          |       employer, Apple Computer Inc."

---------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dominique Landry)
Subject: ASSEMBLY PROGRAMMING
Date: 25 Mar 92 16:16:51 GMT
Organization: DND, Ottawa, CANADA


Hi!

About five years ago, I bought the 68000 Macintosh Development System
for programming in Assembly Code. Now, with System 7, the 68030 micro-
processor seems to be the way to go... Does Apple intend to produce
an update for its Assembly MDS environment? Does anybody know some
good litterature about the 68030 family? Who can provide the details
about the new 512K-ROM ; I only have 128K-ROM with MDS 2.0 ?

By the way - I now program on a MacIIx. I'd like to use all its
advantages for programming in "real time" for my simulation models.

Thank you!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: [e-mail] (Matthias Ulrich Neeracher)
Date: 25 Mar 92 17:57:56 GMT
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH

[e-mail] (Dominique Landry) writes:
>About five years ago, I bought the 68000 Macintosh Development System
>for programming in Assembly Code. Now, with System 7, the 68030 micro-
>processor seems to be the way to go... Does Apple intend to produce
>an update for its Assembly MDS environment?

I *really* don't think so. You probably should consider switching to MPW.
On the other hand, of MDS Assembler still runs (does it ? I doubt it),
you don't necessarily have to get 68030 instructions. The 68XXX family
was quite reasonably designed to begin with, so the 68030 is not an
improvement over the 68000 the way an 80386 is an improvement over an 8086.

>Who can provide the details
>about the new 512K-ROM ; I only have 128K-ROM with MDS 2.0 ?

Inside Macintosh V and VI discuss the features that have arrived since
the 128K ROM.

Matthias

- -----
Matthias Neeracher                                   [e-mail]
 "You must have picked up that copy of Scarlett instead of Inside Mac
  when you tried to find the right call..." -- Keith Rollin

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: [e-mail] (Mike Steiner)
Date: 25 Mar 92 23:55:28 GMT
Organization: Claris Corporation

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Dominique Landry) writes:
>
>
> Hi!
>
> About five years ago, I bought the 68000 Macintosh Development System
> for programming in Assembly Code. Now, with System 7, the 68030 micro-
> processor seems to be the way to go... Does Apple intend to produce
> an update for its Assembly MDS environment? Does anybody know some
> good litterature about the 68030 family? Who can provide the details
> about the new 512K-ROM ; I only have 128K-ROM with MDS 2.0 ?

Shortly after Apple released MPW, they returned the 68000 MDS back to
Consulair; who wrote it for them in the first place.  I don't know
whether they still market it or not, but it is no longer Apple's
product.

---------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Steve Klingsporn)
Subject: Cool Idea:  ResEdit as a Finder Extension...
Date: 25 Mar 92 19:39:00 GMT
Organization: Brown University


I think this would be a cool way to integrate ResEdit into Finder 7.x:

User holds down a specified set of modifiers and double-clicks on
any file with a resource fork (app, etc.).  A la "mover," a window
opens up with resources (with nice little color icons).  Menus
are added, and some items are changed when the resource windows are
up, and you have cool editors like in ResEdit 2.x.  Close the window
to save the changes (interface is unimportant at this point)...

But it would be cool.

Along these same lines, say, maybe you could open a file and move
resources from one app to another by dragging, etc.  Trash resources by
moving them to the trash...  Maybe in an OOP app, you could actually move
compiled objects (if they were in the same CODE resource) amongst apps.
Then, maybe you could tie objects together with AppleScript, and say,
create your own applications out of objects used in other apps...

Just ideas...  I realize there is a lot of "techie stuff" behind these
ideas.

But I think it would be cool.

I think it would be great if PINK would think of applications more as
"tools," as such that perhaps you wouldn't necessarily think of being
in "Excel," but rather you'd be using "your favorite pencil tool"
on "an 8 1/2 inch sheet of paper," or a "manilla colored canvas."
Say, "Hey, I'm checking the essay I wrote on this piece of paper with
my favorite spelling checker tool..."

Ah, just abstract ideas.

In my opinion, the Mac is more "modal" than one would think.  I think
that there should be little or no distinction between separate applications,
that it adds layers to the experience that aren't necessary.  The menu
bar is a big problem in this area:  in an environment like NeXTStep,
you have menu palettes, and can see more than one at the same time (
I believe...?)...  The menu bar makes it seem like the top app is
"more important," than say, the drawing that's being worked on in an app
in the background.  I would like to see it where there is little modality
and you can move a pencil tool from a drawing to a chart, and see little
change in the way windows look, etc.  Who needs a topmost window?  You
type wherever you click the insertion point to be...

Dunno.  Been reading "The art of human-computer interface design" too
much.  Think that there are many clever new ways Apple could improve
upon its already excellent interface.


Steve Klingsporn

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: [e-mail] (Gerald Edgar)
Date: 25 Mar 92 20:09:19 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University, Dept. of Math.

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Klingsporn) writes:
>
>I think this would be a cool way to integrate ResEdit into Finder 7.x:
>
>User holds down a specified set of modifiers and double-clicks on
>any file with a resource fork (app, etc.).  A la "mover," a window
>opens up with resources (with nice little color icons).  Menus
>are added, and some items are changed when the resource windows are
>up, and you have cool editors like in ResEdit 2.x.  Close the window
>to save the changes (interface is unimportant at this point)...
>

I have an alias of ResEdit at the bottom of my screen.  I drag a file
onto it, and a window opens...  (etc).
- --
  Gerald A. Edgar                Internet:  [e-mail]
  Department of Mathematics      Bitnet:    EDGAR@OHSTPY
  The Ohio State University      telephone: [phone] (Office)
  Columbus, OH 43210             -292-4975 (Math. Dept.) -292-1479 (Dept. Fax)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: [e-mail] (Thomas Aaron Insel)
Date: 25 Mar 92 20:38:05 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

[e-mail] (Steve Klingsporn) writes:

>Along these same lines, say, maybe you could open a file and move
>resources from one app to another by dragging, etc.  Trash resources by
>moving them to the trash...  Maybe in an OOP app, you could actually move
>compiled objects (if they were in the same CODE resource) amongst apps.
>Then, maybe you could tie objects together with AppleScript, and say,
>create your own applications out of objects used in other apps...

>But I think it would be cool.

It was cool.  Andy Hertzfeld's Servant finder-replacement did this, and
multiple-applications on-screen at once before MultiFinder.  And, it talked
to you, too.  Unfortunately, it only works with old (throught 5.0) system
software, and was never complete.

>I think it would be great if PINK would think of applications more as
>"tools," as such that perhaps you wouldn't necessarily think of being
>in "Excel," but rather you'd be using "your favorite pencil tool"
>on "an 8 1/2 inch sheet of paper," or a "manilla colored canvas."
>Say, "Hey, I'm checking the essay I wrote on this piece of paper with
>my favorite spelling checker tool..."

I agree completely.

>In my opinion, the Mac is more "modal" than one would think.  I think
>that there should be little or no distinction between separate applications,
>that it adds layers to the experience that aren't necessary.  The menu
>bar is a big problem in this area:  in an environment like NeXTStep,
>you have menu palettes, and can see more than one at the same time (
>I believe...?)...  The menu bar makes it seem like the top app is
>"more important," than say, the drawing that's being worked on in an app
>in the background.  I would like to see it where there is little modality
>and you can move a pencil tool from a drawing to a chart, and see little
>change in the way windows look, etc.  Who needs a topmost window?  You
>type wherever you click the insertion point to be...

Yes, in many ways, X is much less modal than Mac.  Ideally, there should
be pop-up menu bars from window title bars, with system-wide things in a
pallete, or a menu that pops-up when you click the desktop.  Many mac
features worked well, but aren't appropriate for a large-screen multitasking
environment.
- --
Thomas Aaron Insel ([e-mail])
  s-mail: URH 227 Saunders, 906 W. College, Urbana IL 61801
  I speak for myself, and not for the State or University of Illinois.
  "We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty." -- Edward R. Murrow

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: [e-mail] (John Price)
Date: 25 Mar 92 20:51:39 GMT
Organization: UCLA Particle Physics Research Group

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Steve Klingsporn) writes:
>I think it would be great if PINK would think of applications more as
>"tools," as such that perhaps you wouldn't necessarily think of being
>in "Excel," but rather you'd be using "your favorite pencil tool"
>on "an 8 1/2 inch sheet of paper," or a "manilla colored canvas."
>Say, "Hey, I'm checking the essay I wrote on this piece of paper with
>my favorite spelling checker tool..."

Just out of curiosity, how would you implement games in this scenario?  I
can't really see myself calling a game an "entertainment tool"...

           John Price * * * * [e-mail]
           Where there is no solution, there is no problem.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: [e-mail] (Matthias Ulrich Neeracher)
Date: 25 Mar 92 22:34:27 GMT
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH

[e-mail] (Steve Klingsporn) writes:
>I think this would be a cool way to integrate ResEdit into Finder 7.x:

>User holds down a specified set of modifiers and double-clicks on
>any file with a resource fork (app, etc.).  A la "mover," a window
>opens up with resources (with nice little color icons).  Menus
>are added, and some items are changed when the resource windows are
>up, and you have cool editors like in ResEdit 2.x.  Close the window
>to save the changes (interface is unimportant at this point)...

>But it would be cool.

I agree. You've just reinvented Servant by Andy Hertzfeld :-)
Would be a real nice thing to have again, but I don't think I've managed
to get a version of Servant to run since 1987 or 88.

Matthias

- -----
Matthias Neeracher                                   [e-mail]
   "No, what he didn't like about heroes was that they were usually
    suicidally gloomy when sober and homicidally insane when drunk."
                          -- Terry Pratchett, _The Colour of Magic_

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: [e-mail] (Kjell Krona)
Date: 26 Mar 92 07:47:05 GMT
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden

In the pre-cursor to what become MultiFinder, which was written
(correct me if I am wrong) by Andy Hertzfeld, and named Juggler,
you could open up and edit resource files in this way. In the
version that I used for a while (which was quite buggy, however)
there were editors for most common resources. So, apparently, it
is possible; the only hitch is that today, a resource file which
is already open (like the system) is a little dangerous to edit,
since the Mac will use the opened resources in memory, even if
they are currently in an inconsistent state due to being edited.
It ought to be possible to "hide" the edit-opened resources, so
the changes would only appear after a save.

< In my opinion, the Mac is more "modal" than one would think.  I think
< that there should be little or no distinction between separate applications,
< that it adds layers to the experience that aren't necessary.  The menu
< bar is a big problem in this area:  in an environment like NeXTStep,
< you have menu palettes, and can see more than one at the same time
< I believe...?)...

NeXT only uses one menu palette at a time, and this will change when
changing applications. After all, UNIX isn't the first system you will
look at when trying to provide seamless integration. In the Apple Lisa,
applications were much more "hidden" than in the Mac; to write, you
had to "tear off" a piece of writing stationery, which loaded the
word processing module; to make a graph, a piece of graph paper, et c.
The user never had to thing of it as a specific application, since
several "applictions" could run together with "real" multitasking".
This was abandoned with the Mac, both because of memory limitations
and because of the slow performance of the Lisa (running at 5 Mhz)

In the system that inspired Steve Jobs, Bill Atkinson, and others at
Apple to create the Lisa and the Mac, was the Star system shown to
them at Xerox Parc in 1981 (1980?). I have not seen the orignal Star,
but I saw one of its offspring in 1986 with the capability to "drag"
a chart from a chart window to a word processing window, just like
copying a file in the Finder.

< The menu bar makes it seem like the top app is
< "more important," than say, the drawing that's being worked on in an app
< in the background.  I would like to see it where there is little modality
< and you can move a pencil tool from a drawing to a chart, and see little
< change in the way windows look, etc.  Who needs a topmost window?  You
< type wherever you click the insertion point to be...

There is one important thing about the "topmost window" and that is, who
shall recieve a key press from the keyboard? At least in older version
of SUNs window system, the window in which the arrow pointer was currently
situated received the key press, resultning (at least for me) in many
errors when the arrow "happened" to move to another window without this
being a purposeful action. By requiring a mouse click to activate a window,
you will have to focus explicitly on the change in activities. Still, there
is no reason why all tools wouldn't work in all windows. If HyperCard had
been integrated in the system as a "Finder extensions", it coudl have been
possible to paint a folder, for example, directly instead of the method
in system 7 to start up a Paint program, copy the little icon (taking care
to get exactly 32 * 32 pixels, of course), selecting a folder, open the
"Info" window, selecting the icon, and paste. Talk about easy...

    - kjell        [e-mail]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: [e-mail] (Quinn "The Eskimo!")
Date: 26 Mar 92 01:38:42 GMT
Organization: The University of Western Australia

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Steve Klingsporn) writes:
>
>
> I think this would be a cool way to integrate ResEdit into Finder 7.x:
>
> User holds down a specified set of modifiers and double-clicks on
> any file with a resource fork (app, etc.).  A la "mover," a window
> opens up with resources (with nice little color icons).  Menus
> are added, and some items are changed when the resource windows are
> up, and you have cool editors like in ResEdit 2.x.  Close the window
> to save the changes (interface is unimportant at this point)...
>
> But it would be cool.

It has already been done a *long* time ago.  It was a Finder replacement
(anyone remember the days when you could replace the Finder (-: ) called
Servant.  I think it was written by Andy Hertzfeld as his idea of a cool
hack.  I've got a copy archived away on my floppy disks somewhere.  My
catalogue says "Servant .951" created 5 Aug 1987 but I don't have my disks
on me so I can check the details.  Besides, somehow I don't think it would
work too well on my Quadra!  But I did test it once on a Mac Classic and
it did work, although it wasn't "production quality" software.

Has anyone got a more recent version?

Quinn "The Eskimo!"   <[e-mail]>  "Real Coke, Diet .sig"
Department of Computer Science, The University of Western Australia

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: [e-mail] (David Friedman)
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1992 20:38:22 GMT


To add to this discussion, and perhaps jump to an entirely different one,
it would be great if the Mac was really multi-user.  I don't mean
networks, multi-tasking, and all that.  What I mean is if I sit down at
another users make, and I spend 15 or 20 minutes configuring the windows,
the aliases, and the screen depth to my liking, it would be great if I
could save those settings for just me.  Sort of like some luxury
cars...you punch in your id # and the seat, steering column, radio, and
mirrors all conform to your specifications.  This would be ideal on the
Mac.  Each user gets a desktop that only shows the files they want (with a
folder of "other" files) and text files or documents that belong to that
user.  Remember, this is not a network, this is an individual workstation.

Just my two cents.

- --
| We live in a Christian Nation, and Surrogate Sex is the latest temptation|
| It's titilation without sensation, with no regrets or condemnation!      |
| ---Meat Cigars (Tombstone Records, PO Box 1463, Clackamas, OR  97015)    |

---------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jon W{tte)
Subject: Invisible editing problem
Date: 25 Mar 92 12:59:39 GMT
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden

> [e-mail] (David Plumpton) writes:

   Has anybody had any problems using TCL CEditText and CDialogText classes?
   I've slapped a bunch of them in a window, only to find that some of them
   never display their text, or the insertion point, while the others are okay.

The problem comes from using whole lines; if your edit text
has less than 16 pixels for a chicago field, you get 0 lines...

And why use IViewRes when there's DLOGDialogs ?

- --
[e-mail]; Jon W{tte, the Diplomat - NOT!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: [e-mail] (David Plumpton)
Date: 25 Mar 92 06:18:06 GMT
Organization: University Of Wollongong

Has anybody had any problems using TCL CEditText and CDialogText classes?
I've slapped a bunch of them in a window, only to find that some of them
never display their text, or the insertion point, while the others are okay.
I'm using IViewRes, and apart from the positions in the window, the resources
are *identical*.  I can't figure it out.  I've looked at the classes with
the debugger, but have not found any significant differences between the
ones that work and the ones that don't.

Any ideas?

- --
/------------------------------\ /-------------------------------\
I       David Plumpton          I     There is a holy trinity:    |
I [e-mail] I N Tesla, R Feynman and C Sagan  |
\------------------------------/ \-------------------------------/

---------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Matthew T. Russotto)
Subject: Think C & coroutines
Date: 25 Mar 92 17:57:31 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, University of Maryland, College Park

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>    Secondly, is there some way to stop Think C from generating the link/
>unlnk instructions at procedure entry/exit.  I've checked the option to not
>force the compilier to generate stack frames and it still does.  The function
>I am interested in consists of a single asm block and no C statements.  Is there
>something silly I've forgotten to do?

The function must be declared to have no parameters (right, you can't
prototype it correctly).  A no-parameter function containing an asm
block will never have a stack frame, regardless of the setting of the
'force stack frame' option.



- --
Matthew T. Russotto    [e-mail]    [e-mail]
Some news readers expect "Disclaimer:" here.
Just say NO to police searches and seizures.  Make them use force.
(not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: [e-mail] (Pauli)
Date: 25 Mar 92 05:42:38 GMT

hi,
    I am attempting to write a coroutine/thread package for use with
Think C (version 5) and objects.  I hope to produce something capable of
associating one thread with one object (but to not force every object to
be a thread).  I've got a few questions about things I'm having trouble with.


    Firstly, the library reference manual mentions that setjmp/longjmp
don't work with object methods?  Is there any reason why this should be
so?  I can see that having indirect objects may cause problems since the
object may have moved between the call to setjmp and the call to longjmp.  I
am quite willing to lock down my objects (in fact it is necessary to do so to
stop the multiple stacks from moving around in memory).
Is there some other reason why setjmp/longjmp won't work with methods?

    Secondly, is there some way to stop Think C from generating the link/
unlnk instructions at procedure entry/exit.  I've checked the option to not
force the compilier to generate stack frames and it still does.  The function
I am interested in consists of a single asm block and no C statements.  Is there
something silly I've forgotten to do?  ( This one isn't critical since I've
found a workaround that defines a function withing the asm block and it appears
to work ok ).

    Thirdly, I have got a prototype theads package written and it appears
to work, however Think C crashes when I attempt to recompile after I run my
test programs.  This may be related to a wild pointer on my part, but I kind of
find it a little difficult to believe that I can consistently trash the compile
code inside Think reguardless of how my application runs!  It is only when I
bring the project up to date that problems happen and only after I've already
compilied and run the thing.  Is Think C caching code segments in its own
heap or something like that?


Thanks in advance.


                                Pauli

Paul Dale                       | [e-mail]
Department of Computer Science  | [phone]
University of Queensland        |
Australia, 4072                 | The virus has infected my signature,
                                |     copy it to yours too.
- --

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: [e-mail] (Douglas Bitting)
Date: 25 Mar 92 02:25:56 GMT
Organization: You gotta be kidding me!


In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Pauli) writes:

>     Firstly, the library reference manual mentions that setjmp/longjmp
> don't work with object methods?  Is there any reason why this should be
> so?  I can see that having indirect objects may cause problems since the
> object may have moved between the call to setjmp and the call to longjmp.

I am *not* an expert on this, and for all i know the following could
be nothing but rubbish, but it makes sense to me.  :-)

I don't believe this is the problem.  The problem is that if you use a
setjmp/longjmp with a method, you are setting up a way to jump
directly into a method.  The reason why I *think* this won't work is
that it would seem to me the code generated by THINK C doesn't jump
directly into the method when you call it.  Instead, I would think it
does some fooling around first in order to set some sort of a state
variable pointing to the object whose method is being invoked.  If you
use setjmp/longjmp you would bypass this fooling around and your
method would have no idea which object is being referred to.

> Paul Dale                       | [e-mail]

I reserve the right to be way off base... :-)
- --Doug
- --
- --
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

---------------------------

End of C.S.M.P. Digest
**********************